Savage Garden Reviews/Opinions

Below you can read what your fellow club-goers think about the Savage Garden (550 Queen Street West).

To read more reviews on clubs,shops,events,music etc. visit www.toronto-goth.com/reviews

The opinions expressed in these reviews do not necessarily reflect those of Toronto-Goth.

Don't agree with what you just read? Have something to add? If you would like to submit some comments/opinions/reviews to be posted here, or even some pictures of you or your friends at Savage Garden, we'd love to hear from you.

In reply to "Watcher"....

"Watcher" posed many questions I'm sure many are thinking about, but for one reason or another, have never asked. Athough I cannot speak for others, I feel I can speak for myself, and possibly a select group of close friends. Many of whom have been in the "scene" for over a decade.
In regards to finding a DJ that plays "true industrial" music? No, "Watcher" is not the only one who's having a hard time finding this. Although I will say that Paul is more liberal with his playing of industrial tracks, than any DJ in recent memory. However, the best set of industrial/alternative music I ever heard on a night out wasn't even in Toronto. It was on a Monday night out in Hamilton, at 'Fever'. Whether this form of music "still exists" anymore is hard to say, because quite frankly, very few DJ's are playing it. Is anyone still "creating/inventing" it? Absolutely. My band is, and whether we get stage time or not as a result, we are still going to continue making the music we love to make. So people should stop asking us to go "synthpop", because that's NOT going to happen.
You asked about "Music that makes you think about, and critically examine, our society.". Well, again, that's what we do. If you can't find that element in "synthpop" tracks, then I suggest you dig out some FLA tracks from days of old, and renew your love for them. Music without a message, is nothing more than a wasted medium. Bands like FLA and Front 242 are the "rebels" you are talking about, and the ones you miss. In synthpop, "Peace, love, and angel wings" is not so much a message as it is a formula, followed by more of those bands that I can shake a stick at. It says NOTHING about society, and everything about being unoriginal. You speak of "growing up, giving in, relenting, and accepting" like doing so would make you a failure. Well, guess what? It doesn't. It's called "cutting your losses, and moving on". We do it every single day of our lives, in one form or another. I have, my friends have, and I'm sure plenty others have to. The scene changed, and not for the better. At least in OUR opinions. We liked it for a reason, that reason no longer exists, so why waste time pretending it's something it's not, or will one day go back to being what it was? I'm NOT telling you, to not go out and support your local clubs anymore. Just to accept the scene for what it has now become, and enjoy the occasional industrial track that is thrown your way every now and then. In response to your last question, "Is this the beginning of the end of a thriving alternative music scene?". No, it's not. The end came YEARS ago. Some of us were just quicker to realize it, and accept it.

- review by Gh0sT (July 21 2003)

Found a Great Club while I was there...

It was 1998 when I was in a Three day stay over in Toronto before my plane left back for my hometown. Nothing to do on a Friday night in one of the biggest Canadian cities, so me and a friend decided to check out the Queen Street Bar strip. Glad I did to be honest.

The first two bars (Which shall remain nameless) were a bomb to say the least. I was not impressed by anything that these clubs had to offer.

I was about to go back to my hotel room and sulk about the high prices for cover charge and beer, when I noticed a bouncer outside "The Savage Garden" was wearing one of the Vampire: The Masquerade clan pins. I had only meant to stop and ask about it, but as it turned out, he was one of the local LARP gamers. Being a LARPer myself, we hit it off fairly well, until I started to complain about the two others bars and their prices for drinks. Seeing as how he knew my friend and I were Out of Towners, he waved the cover charge and showed us upstairs. Glad I decided to stay and chat with the man, as The Savage Garden was the best place I had seen in the three days I was there. The decore was very tasteful, with ambient lighting in just the right places. Not only that, both staff and regular patrons were friendly and courteous, which I didn't get in either of the other two bars I was in that night. I was suitably impressed with what I saw. Not alot of Hyper-active barely legal teens running around, yet there were no scummy elder bar flies there either. I can't really say much about the music though, as my attention was mostly focused on the people I was talking with.

Definately a place I'd go back to if I ever get to Toronto again.

- review by Kaylin (July 8 2003)

just another opinion

I thought I'd have better luck with the gothic ladies since "goths" share some of the same interests so I heard of this place and thus decided to give it a try (we all have needs) well didn't get to get laid that day but found out that dancing is quite fun. The ppl (well most o'em) are quite civilized and with a great sense of fashion. You can dance as however you like and ppl will not give ya any beef, everyone seems to treat each other with respect (goth or none goth) or so it seems. Drinks seems to be at a reasonable price, but what the hell do I know, I only drink beer; never the less I'm not rich but we all gotta contribute a little to support such great places. The staff ppl are prettty cool and friendly and Spider-man rocks. The place is not really that big and maybe that's why you get that cozy and safe feeling and why everyone (again) respects each other. We all have to eat and thus work, so I've only been there on saturdays but that dj pale dude plays a lot of good tunes to shake your tush to, I can't say which is better x-men or x-2 the're both great!! so if you want to have a good time dancing or watching lovely, creative, artistic gothic ladies dance (i guess there's guys too but that's for women..or...uh..other, hey whatever works for ya be happy you only live once) with out anyone giving ya a hard time I suggest the savage garden, mind ya the Hulk was a bit (just a bit) boring, but man he looked real! When the hell is Dare Devil coming out on DVD???!!!......WE CAN SMOKE POT WITH OUT(MUCH) HASSLE!!!! THIS COUNTRY ROCKS!!!!! ...hey look..a shiny object!!!.........

- review by Venom (July 1 2003)

If you don't know it....

Well, I just read that huge long report on the state of the Toronto club scene by Paul Samuels and I gotta say, it was educational. Paul is a gentleman I've known for quite some years now (and I mean gentleman in the true sense, not in the sense of off-hand usage) but most often when I chat with him these days it's while he's between changing songs and that isn't the best time to have an involved conversation. Obviously, I've got to make more time once in a while and catch him while he isn't spinning, because he still knows a lot of interesting things about what is really going on in this city.

I could write a lot of meaningless crap about what a great and open club the Savage Garden is, and I would do just that for the place if this was some general site listing clubs and stuff, but this is TorontoGoth and like the title says, if you don't know the Savage Garden, and you are hanging out here...jeez. Then get out of the house once in a damn while.

The goth scene in Toronto is big enough that there will always been different nights in different places, and different groups of people who flock to those nights for various reasons, but the Savage Garden is IT. Period. Sanctuary has been mentioned by ghost and I'll give Sanctuary its due, it was a true nexus of the goth scene in Toronto also. Although I was always going to Savage even when the other option was there, and enjoying the sense of rivalry between the two. It was always kind of funny to walk down Queen Street, between Bathurst and Ossington on a Saturday night, and pass other goths decked out in the week-end best, them heading west to Sanctuary and me heading east Savage. They knew where I was going and I knew where they were going and there was sometimes that look...but all in good fun. And I did duck in to Sanctuary every once in a while to say hi to friends. The scene is poorer without it.

Since Sanctuary has closed I can't imagine any club that could possibly compete with Savage in terms of embodying the scene in Toronto. And with the look back at all the other great old clubs in the Toronto past (thanks Naz) I am reminded once again that I will probably miss Savage more than I could possibly realize one day when it is gone. And I think everyone else will too. But not this year, and hopefully not for a long time to come. I don't live in the area anymore, and I don't get out nearly as much as I might like, but damn it's good to know the place is there when I want it to be.

It's a bloody shame what taxation is doing to the club scene in Toronto, but there is no way in hell I am ever moving myself into those horrible big box clubs down on King St. No damn way. Paul can jack his prices up to eight bucks a drink for all I care and I will still be at Savage, because there is no better place in Toronto. And it's really that simple.

- review by Jeff (June 26 2003)

The Secret Garden

I'm almost loath to reveal my "secret garden," but I can't have my club being outdone in ratings. I'm there every Saturday (and then some), and the time I have there can't be beat. The staff members are genial, witty, and just downright cool. Some may argue that it's too small, but its size is one of the reasons I like it so much (it's cozy). It's not over crowded, and the patrons are pleasent and laid back in their attitude, making for a very open and welcoming environment. The music is top notch, and the proprietor is always trying to find new ways to please the patrons (a bevy of theme nights/release parties etc). You don’t have to take my word for it. Check out there website for a sample of the play lists and good times. www.savagegarden.ca Swoop_guy

- review by swoop guy (June 19 2003)

Way to Go Paul!

I would just like to give Paul the up-most respect for finding out what people had to say about his club and defending his territory when people fail to see the reasoning behind his actions. When I first think about indusrtial/goth night clubs, I think that the people who own the clubs are not actually the people who listen or support th music industry. I thought the owners were snobby, fat, rich men who occasionally stopped by the club to "protect their investments" but thats not the case. Paul is obviously an advocate of The Savage Garden scene and is protesing that he is not getting filthy rich off of the people who go there. I would just like to support Paul and say thanks for exposing yourself to wherever Savage Garden is mentioned and for letting people know who you really are, what you are all about, and get people familiar with what goes on when the suns out!

- review by Shane/Weedgod (May 24 2003)

Enjoying it So Far

To all who come across this posting and take a moment to read it, I would just like to say that Savage Garden is such a fun place to go to. Last night was the third time I have ever been to Savage but it has been my third Friday in a row and all I can think about is going back the next night. This place is a place where socializing is so much easier than the bigger places like Zen. I find that the regulars are energetic to talk to new comers and welcome them to their haven. Thanks and shout outs to Dementia for taking my pic and introducing herself, I only knew OF her up until then and she is so nice. I liked the music that they played, very talented DJs and very easy to dance to their selections and is just a fun place to let loose. Also, if there are hard to find cds you are looking for, Savage Garden will have it or they are more than happy to help you find it. They have very rare material at a resonable price. I really recommend this place and I plan to b! e there every Friday at least. I must encourage everyone to come out the first Thursday of every month to New Scream. Check it out and I hope to see some new faces.

- review by shane/weedgod (May 24 2003)

Paradise Lost?

Paul, I would like to sincerely thank you for offering a clear, honest, and respectful response to my earlier message. I thank you for clarifying, what you correctly and politely suggest to be, my misinformed understanding of the financial obligations of your venue.

My earlier message was written - not with malice, but with sorrow. My lament is not primarily over the state of Savage, but because I honestly cannot find a DJ who will play true industrial or alternative music (hence, the title). I don't even know if this form of music exists anymore? Is there anyone out there still creating/ inventing?

This particular long-weekend has confirmed my worst fears: the alternative scene is, in fact, dead.

Savage truly IS the final frontier. It is all that we have left.

I have spent at least a year travelling to different cities around the GTA, and I honestly cannot find a comparable venue which will play anything other than R&B, Funk, Dance, House, Hip Hop, "New" Rock (whatever...), even Retro, on a Saturday night. It is seriously depressing me.

Even the magical internet genie comes up empty, when I send it searching...

Try it. I dare you. In fact, I beg you to prove me wrong! How I wish someone would. Please send a million emails about all the special places in Toronto which still play music that is NOT formula or repetitive. Music that makes you think about, and critically examine, our society. Where are the rebels WITH a cause?

Does anyone remember?

This is where Naz's words ring true to form. It IS very important to support what scene is still in existence. I thank him, as well, for his kind reminder.

Part of me thinks that I should just grow up, give in, relent and accept the fact that all good things must come to an end. (Afterall, it IS an entirely different millenium!) Yet, when I seriously think about doing this, some other tiny (but influential) part of me cannot allow myself to follow through.

This is when I must ask: "Is originality/ creativity dead?". This question was not specifically targeted toward Savage; instead, it was intended as an open-ended concern about the state of music, DJ's, and club offerings at this time.

Some of my comments were strung together, out of context, and accidentally assumed a meaning entirely different from the one I intended.

I will re-write my hope, in not-so-different words, for Maurizio to return. I hope that Savage would remember him and welcome him again, as they have in the past. I hope that original/ creative alternative music loving DJ's are not impossible to find. I hope that someone somewhere is still creating a truly unique alternative sound.

I will re-assert my perception that Savage seems to be trying, very hard, to maintain a superior industrial scene. I will restate that I choose to remain loyal to it, for a little while longer.

I have been actively searching for an alternative to Savage. Not because there is anything particularly wrong with the sound or the decor (?). I simply need a change of venue sometimes. (I also appreciate a little more subtlety and darkness, and the cheaper drinks in Waterloo, for example.)

So I must question aloud once more: "Is this the beginning of the end [of a thriving alternative music scene]?".

I repeat:
DJM, I still miss you
and
I am still searching...

Watcher at the Gates

- review by Watcher at the Gates (May 19 2003)

Clubs and costs...

Unfortuately, Paul is very much right on the money. I remember posting something similar when Sanctuary was sold, and alot of people were crucifing the owner for it. Not that we're 'drinking buddies', or that even that I darken the doors of his club anymore, but I felt that I did, in good concious, need to speak up for him, as so many clueless idiots we saying he "sold out". Which is a load of crap. Anyone who's ever owned a bar, or worked in one like I have, knows that municipalities and landlords rarely play fair when it comes to the service industry (specifically bars and clubs). They are almost ALWAYS the first to be hit with an increase in rent, fees, and licenses. That doesn't doesn't even included an increase in utilities, liquor supplies, garbage removal, and your standard, staff payroll. I've been approached numerous times over the past few years about going into a partnership and opening a club, and each time I flat out turned them down. I've seen firsthand how this city treats owners, it's only gotten worse with time, so I really don't see the incentive for me to follow that route. So if and when an owner eventually closes up shop, people should stop and think for a second before calling them a "sellout", because maybe that person didn't have much of a choice.

- review by Ghost (May 2 2003)

Support for Savage

It's not often I make my presence known to the scene at large, but I thought a few words of optimism might help.

Some of you might know me. I've been in & out of the alt. club scene in Toronto for 19 years. I started at Twilight Zone, worked briefly at Death in the Underground bussing, and have recently returned to the scene after a couple of years in hibernation. (*waves to everyone who remembers Kevin who always wore a leather cap*)

The scene has changed a lot since I was a lad of 16. In some ways it's become more sophisticated, and in others it seems to have become less accepting & experimental. Having been a regular at a number of the big "landmark" clubs over the past generation, I've been in a position to see these changes evolve.

One thing I now realize as I look back is how little we truly appreciated those special places when we had them. Those of us here old enough to remember Twilight Zone know what I mean -- it was all new & strange & wonderful, and we moved too fast to allow ourselves a breath to reflect. When the Zone vanished, it came as a shock, and we thought the scene had died.

The alt/goth scene has had a lot of special locations since the heady days of the 80's. Dominos, Backstreet, Magic, Dance Cave, Catch22, Sanctuary, Death, Velvet U... all (and more) have been those magical venues for someone.

I like to think I'm old enough now to try and appreciate what I have -- and Savage Garden is one of those things. Having seen so many clubs come & go, one can develop a cynical attitude that "there will always be someplace else". There may very well be, but Savage Garden is a unique entity, and it should be treasured.

No other club has managed to do what Savage has done, with class and taste. I met Paul shortly before Savage opened, and I remember how enthusiastic he was and how visionary his approach. Usually people with that much inspiration lack the perspiration to pull off their plans -- and if you had asked me in '93 if I thought Savage would be around in 10 years I would have expressed doubts.

However they did it. Savage is still here and acting as one of the main anchors for a scene that has very few.

In any venture there will be rocky areas -- personality conflicts, bad judgement, poor decisions -- but success counts on ploughing through past these road bumps. This Savage has done.

Paul isn't doing us a favour by having Savage in existence. Likewise, we aren't doing Paul a favour by patronizing his club. Rather, we are both working to ensure the SCENE has a thriving & healthy base, and this is what Savage & it's patrons have done with astonishing success.

I suppose what I'm getting at is we should all take a breath now & then and really appreciate what we have. Sure there will occasionally be things to bitch & whine about (on both sides of the fence), but beyond the crisis of the moment, let's think about the larger picture.

Savour the good. Don't sweat the bad.

Naz
aka
Kevin

- review by Naz (May 1 2003)

From Paul Samuels, Owner, Savage garden

This originally started out as a rebuttal to the lament for DjM by watcher, but seems to have turned into something more. First off, I too miss Mauritzio. He challenged many things not always for the good, but always to effect progressive change. In this scene its rare to find that sort of positive attitude. Anyway, Whilst reading the piece I realized that some points had been missed and the reason for that wasn't a negative viewpoint or bitching (as is sometimes the case on this forum) but was because of a lack of information about what is really happening in the nightclubs of Toronto. Well, nobody knows what's going on, so here's the industry inside. Costs are skyrocketing. Property taxes, buisness insurance, building insurance, hydro, even water. 2002 was a very tough year at Savage. Not because of lack of buisness (far from it) but because costs rose drastically. To take one example, overnight the club insurance went up by $10'000. One day, all was good. The next, absolute horror. I sat down and considered what to do. We already ran a very tight budget made possible by excellent staff and much hard work. The end result, I was damned if my hard work and that of everyone else was to go down the drain because of 9/11 and government policy towards the service of liquor (this is a long and involved industry explanation and not one to get into here), I would do what it took to keep Savage going. So I worked my ass off, both inside and outside of Savage to keep it open. All drinks went up by . 25 cents, and despite taking a serious personal cash hit Savage steamrollered on. Then comes 2003, insurance is due to go up by another $10'000. I'm faced with a problem, as are many other clubs of Toronto. Incoming revenue does not cover costs. Case in point the soon to be gone Zen lounge, less than three weeks and counting. Why? because the present managers cannot continue with the increase in costs for this upcoming year and stay in buisness. (Get out and support those 'scene' nights at Zen and hopefully the new management will continue with them.)

Despite what watcher posted Savage really can't get any busier, the room only holds so many partying club goers. 2003's numbers are the highest ever and there are not many 'scene' clubs that can boast an average of 800 people walking through their doors each and every week. I cannot cover the additional costs from drinks sales alone, unless I increase them to insane prices. I'm not prepared to do that. It directly hurts the people who have come out to support Savage by spending money over the bar. So instead, we broke down the numbers coming in through the door. About a third of the crowd is non-scene or tourists. They are almost all stunned when we dont charge a cover (like everyother nightclub in the world). So I instituted one. Problem solved and hopefully costs will be covered for 2003.

Where am I going with this. Well, occasionally someone mentions the whole expense argument and it drives me crazy. Either some people don't like to think, or believe that everything doesn't cost money. Well, unfortunately it does. Savage is one hell of an amazing space. But at a price. Now to the point.

Could I cut costs at Savage? Well, the answer is yes. Am I going to, no. Savage is not Honest eds. When I first arrived in this city the only choice for the scene was basement clubs that were for the most part deathtraps with floors often covered in piss from overflowing toilets (that was from the ones that actually worked). The scene was being fed watered down drinks, listening to crap soundsystems, and had absoloubtly no respect from the mainstream of Toronto. That's why I started Savage, if you want to drink 6oz glasses of draught at the barn its real cheap (and can also be accompanied by an amazing home made burger, no plug but the burgers are that amazing) go right ahead. But for me to continue to run a club that provides high quality entertainment it costs money. I'd like to think that after 9 years, the fact that we are still in business means that people agree the 'scene' deserve's much more.

"Is creativity/originality dead?, I sincerely hope that Savage remembers how valuable you are. I I hope that you do not arrive too late... Clubland in Toronto is dying..."

In reply, Maybe I should paint the inside of Savage flat black end to end. Strip the one of a kind industrial installation's from its walls, remove the 9 years of constantly applied artists murals, ditch the $15'000 light and sound system, and instead....

Set up a 20 watt Walkman playing mp3's, overshadowed by a radio shack strobe next to an overworked smoke machine. That would definitely be original, but it just wouldn't be much fun as a nightclub. In fact, it would be just like returning to Toronto before Savage, when clubland really was dying.

Paul Samuels
Owner Savage garden
www.savagegarden.ca
paul@savagegarden.ca
April 30 2003

Lament for DJ M....

Ah... Maurizio..... You worked so hard to make Savage the number one industrial/ alternative/ Darkwave/ etc club in Toronto. You effectively de(con)structed the competition. I was happy for you when club after club folded, due to your exceptional knowledge of music and your genuine concern for public service. You deserved to be on top! You educated us about what was possible. You educated us about social justice. You were the Illuminati!

[And you still are!...].

While I was happy that you established yourself, securely, as the number one DJ in Toronto, I also cautioned you about eradicating ALL competition. "There must always be choice - an alternative", I would tell you. Up-and-coming DJ's need a venue to learn the craft. You stay sharp when you are continually challenged by others.

Unfortunately, you had to leave Toronto. You returned to Italy, almost a year ago. I visited Savage, recently, and cannot help but see your ghost in the booth. Although we still write, I greatly miss you.

Savage appears to be trying, very hard, to maintain a superior industrial scene [and I will remain loyal to it for a little while longer...]. While it is great that they do not use the smoke machine as much as you used to, I must still admit that the club is not the same. There are too many bright lights. The drinks have become even more expensive than I remember. I can't believe it, but apparently there is a cover charge now. It is a meagre fee; yet, for me, it is a concrete sign that, perhaps the dream is coming to an end? Perhaps the club cannot attract enough customers and must resort to charging its own clientele for the simplest privilege of existence? To me, this suggests the beginning of the end...

I think that the best way to attract customers, is to find a DJ who is innovative. Understandably, creativity and innovation may be near impossible to find today, as the new millenium appears to be all about re-making/ re-marketing previous works of art.

Is creativity/ originality dead?

I sincerely hope not. I hope that it is merely sleeping, for a time; yet, it has been an age since I have been tempted to question - to shift paradigms.

I know that you will return to us someday. I hope that you will stay with us for another measure of time. I sincerely hope that Savage remembers how valuable you are. I hope that you do not arrive too late...

Clubland in Toronto is dying...
We seek asylum.

- review by Watcher at the Gates (April 15 2003)

Savage: Goth Bar of Choice

If I had to rate Savage between 1-10, I would have to give it an honest 8.5. Paul is by far the most personable club owner I have met, but he has always seemed that way. Even when I met him 9 years ago. His personal tastes in DJ'ing has always, ALWAYS been consistent, which counts for a helluva lot more than most people will admit. He plays what he advertises, and anytime I have walked into the place on his night I have never been surprised by his selection of music. Not once. If I had to critique one thing, it's the over-play of certain types of music and bands on a Friday night. On more than one occasion, I have heard the same song played twice in one night, and the same band played 3 times, very close together. I know DJ's have personal favorites, but sorry, there is only so much VNV Nation one can take before wanting to slit one's wrists. And the DJ booth is not the place to be exercising those personal preferences, since you are there to cater to everyone's tast! es, not just people who like synth, or EMB, or Noise, etc, etc. There's really no reason for a DJ to be doing this, and if it is due to the fact that their CD collection is not all that diversified, then they need to address that, because a diverse CD collection is as necessary to a DJ as a firearm is to a police officer. I've never heard Paul do this on a Saturday, so why it happens on a Friday, I have no idea. Regardless of the occasional instances of this occuring, Savage is the goth bar of choice, in my opinion. Hands down.

- review by Ghost (April 10 2003)

9 years of Savage love...

Just to give you an idea where I'm coming from, here's a quick bio (skip it to just get to the review):

- I've been going to SG for about 9 years (since it opened).

- I designed the club's logo as part of my school pre-requisite "real work" hours.

- I was a cage dancer for about a year (until a jealous girlfriend forbid it)

- I left the scene for years 4 and 5 (because of the same girl)

- Now age 31, I've slowly become a regular again, but I'm much more into the fetish scene

That being said, here's my take on the longest lasting goth club in Toronto (which says something right there IMO):

Over the years Savage Garden has been evolving. The sound system has become a major attracting feature. Extensive renovations have made the best possible use of the space they're in. (If you haven't been by for a couple years you'd be shocked.) It's not the biggest club, but I like that...it doesn't take too many people to make it feel like it's rockin'. And even when it's packed it still manages not to feel too crowded. (And it's CLEAN!!!! I'm not afraid to use the bathroom. I don't feel gross touching the tables or walls with my bare hands!) One side of the club is great to sit and chill where the music isn't too loud to have conversation. There's also a huge window to take in the view of Queen St. The DJ booth is easy to get to for making requests. (And they're really good a taking requests although because of this it may take awhile to hear the song you asked for.) There's lots of great lighting on the dance floor (not too much strobe lighting like some places). The c! age dancers help encourage the dance floor and are always nice to look at.

Every club is going to have a few bad apples and SG in no exception. But for the most part, the people at Savage create a great vibe. You feel comfortable there regardless of your sex or sexual preference (I'm a married, bisexual white male BTW). There are regulars that have been there since the first couple years. The people working the door seem to be doing something right. Remember the Anaracist's Cocktail? It started out alright but then people that just didn't belong in the scene started diluting the vibe. Locals started coming in and it wasn't located in the best neighbourhood. Savage has successfully kept its scene alive and well! Good work guys!

The drink prices are good compared to more mainstream clubs (or fetish nights $$$!!!) but I would prefer a better selection of beer. Their mixed drinks are sort of hit 'n miss.

The only thing I have any problem with is the repetition of music that's played there. Every Saturday night you're guaranteed to hear songs you hear every week. But I don't go every single week so that isn't as much a problem as it used to be in my cage-dancin' days.

It's definitey the best club of its kind in Toronto and I'm happy we have a place like this in the city!

- review by Jetboy (March 7 2003)

Getting into Savage Garden

I've seen a lot of reviews saying people are having difficulty getting into Savage because they aren't dressed "uber goth" or whatever. I have never been turned away, and about 75% of the time I've gone I was wearing "street clothing" (ie t-shirt, green hawian shirt, and yellow-brown cargo pants... with bright white & blue sneakers). I got in every time, except of course when the line is long because the club is packed.

It's probably not racial discrimination, either, seeing as there are many Asian and dark skinned faces familiar to me on Saturday nights.

Either way, when you get in (which I hope everyone can) I prefer Lord Pale's Saturday night playlist. The music is good, and most people near the dance floor are there for one of three reasons: to dance, to watch people dance, and to look at what people are wearing. I've never had trouble with the other patrons, and the security is nice (even though they still check my ID for some reason). I don't drink much so I can't rate their bar service.

When you get there, have fun!

- review by Caldrik (February 25 2003)

Visit from Colorado

We went to the Savage Garden on a holiday in Toronto. We loved it! The decorations were really creative, and I hope that some of the pics I took turned out so I may send them to club to be posted here. The music was well-mixed, but the drinks were not. Perhaps it's because we don't know the bartender, but the drinks seemed very weak. Yes, I did visit from a much higher altitude, but I would like to be able to taste the booze in my $10 drink. It seems that the clubs we saw did not have any or little drink specials. Other than that, I felt that this club was really fun, had a great ambiance, and was full of friendly staff and clubbers to keep everyone happy. I'll make a point to stop by the Savage Garden on our next trip to Toronto.

- review by Hecate93 (September 26 2002)

the garden

Well, all i can say is this. For starters,, WHY would you even waste your time going to a club, who SELECTS its clientle.. mmm pretty hypocritcal for one. You're the customer, aren't you? So thats out. Two,, why would you cmoplain about 'goth' wannabe's? whats makes it eh real thing? lol,, everyone is a wannabe in some way , wether you like it, believe it, or not,, thats the truth,, someone is always ahead of you.. besides you outgrow it anyway. Last,, why line up anywhere? Shit, i don't have time to spend on a friday night standing like some desparate dork, waiting in line , just to be told by some asshole you can't get in anyway.. Fuck, i'd have a better time at fucking Licks or something, at least you get service, good food,, AND you get in!!! And i don't have to be accepted by ANYONE!!!

- review by BJ (September 10 2002)

Too Small

i finally got to see this Savage Garden that i've heard so much about since i moved here and well, it wasnt' what it was pumped up to be. I found the dance floor to be way too small to really dance on. the music isn't bad...depending on what night you go of course. I however, wasn't fond of the "Old Skool". But that's just my personal preference. I do like Dj Pale...he seems like a really nice guy...*smile*

- review by Shadoweaver (September 4 2002)

Inside/Outside of Savage Garden

sooo.... Im doing a little bit of Surfing to clear my head before i trundle off to sleepybedtime cause nothing works better and i drop by to see the 5w's of the page cause i havent been in a while.

eeesh people loosen the coresets and relax.

ive been going there forever. i call it my living room (jokingly). i've recived mail and phonecalls there, remodeled, cleaned, reconstructed, painted, carried really heavy things up and down those death stairs and lovingly do lights for one of the best Djs i have ever known every saturday night.

the security staff are all really nice (comapared to the security staff ive seen elsewere). there is no dress code, but they do try to discurage all the norms that want some "freaky vampire sex" from getting in. (cause we really dont want those people now do we?)

the music thats plaied is less classic goth and more Darkwave/EBM/techno/what ever its name is this week because thats where the sceen is going musicly. Pale still plays more than enuff of the classics to keep everyone happy. (and if thats not enuff theres a OLD SKOOL GOTH/INDUSTRIAL PARTY comming up. (with more on their way)

as for the "attitude", give me names dates and places. aproch us and say something. why cause to be compleatly honest im probably the biggest asshole in there and thats only when im having a bad time/good time. yes sometimes im the one screaming "dance mother fuckers dance" or asking you to tell me how much you like Cheese Wiz before taking your request. and all in all im doing it out of the raw humor value.

my thoughts on the attitude is when you take a bunch of goths and all they want to do is sit in a dark corner and drink red whine (etc,etc) and they seem aloof and unaprochable its not the savage garden "clique" or attitude... its silly goths taking themselves too seriously.

me, i found joy in music again and to be honest its not in goth, yup im wearing Phat pants again... and i just see it as evolution of the scean. the era of romantics is gone... http://www.savagegarden.ca/pages/gothlobster0022_jpg.htm
(yup thats me foofy gothed up for the last time most likely)
the era of amalgimation has begun...
http://www.savagegarden.ca/pages/SM_elevation6_JPG.htm
(thats me in the white pants after spinning good trance)
http://www.savagegarden.ca/pages/SM_elevation11_JPG.htm
(and if you look close enuff you can see phat pants and PVC in the same room.)

ah, just my 0.02$

HoC

- review by HoC (August 20 2002)

Savage Garden

Having just read the review of Savage Garden by Resarfaphx, I feel that I must speak out.

I'm sure that if you were turned away from the bar, it had absolutely nothing to do with your race! There is racial diversity at the Garden! Speaking as a person who has been a dancer at Savage for several years now, I feel confident in stating that Paul and Brenda are good people who run a good business! It is unfortunate that you would assume that your race had something to do with you not being granted admission to the bar. After all, "Whitey" isn't always racist! I am a very obvious bi-racial woman. I have friends from all walks of life, and many of them have walked in to the Garden without any problem!

While I am very sorry to hear that you were not allowed entry, I would like to stress to you that jumping to conclusions or making an assumption as to why you were not admitted is not a fair practice. I must also point out that assuming that someone is racist because they are white is bigotry! Trust me when I tell you that I am very qualified to speak on racism. I would not work at the Garden if racism was a mentality embraced by the proprietors or the staff!

I have been a regular at the Garden since it's opening and I will continue to be a regular....

And to everyone at the Garden, well done, it's been a great 8!

Bat Girl

- review by Bat Girl (August 19 2002)

Savage Garden?

I went to Savage garden on a friday night a little while back after just getting into town hoping to check out the local goth scene. I was dressed head to foot in black with a black leather jacket (it was raining outside) apart from my sneakers since my boots give me blisters when walking around downtown. I'd heard some of the horror stories about the bouncers not letting people in but this was rediculous. They let my friend in with no problem who was completly wasted but wouldn't let me in cause I was 'too drunk' despite being sober. Maybe next time I should carve a pentagram in my arm or something. Guess I wasn't 'goth' enough for them in all that black leather. The bovine & underground were far more accepting and much much better. I know where i'll be spending my money next time.

- review by Erich Zahn (June 22 2002)

Comments from Calgary

savage garden.just moved here from calgary.this and vatikan are probaly the only places ill ever go to drink.i like hard industrial.i like saveg garden.there ya go

- review by xachary (March 21st 2002)

Reflections of Savage Garden

I travelled so far from Long Island, NY to visit Savage Garden in Toronto and it was a dream come true. DJ Lordpale spins the greatest in EBM, darkwave and industrial music! It was definitely worth the trip! I never experienced anything like Savage Garden before and I'm very much thankful that I went! I will definitely visit the Savage Garden again one day soon!

- review by CrewsMan (March 20th 2002)

Friendly Savage Garden - March 15th 2002

whats all the beef about getting in to SAVAGE???
i am a huge Raver i get in..then again i was there the 3rd night the place opened and i worked there for two years...maybe i am not the best example...
but in clubland there is something called "ROAR" (right of refusal and reentry)
and we all have to live with it
many years ago i had to deal with a true blue ASSHOLE who was at the door...fuck my roomate was the bartender!!!!
still i was not always let in...oh well he is gone and hey i am DJ'ing there on Sunday..go figure
point is that not being let into a club is a risk we all take...
there is no real dress code...but if youcome in in "plain dress" you run the risk..unless you know the doorman. There is a certain group of "mundanes" that just want to come in a oogal the pretty goth girls and bug them all night...that is the kind of thing none of us want...i mean really now if you want to stare at some goth girls tits..at least make the effort to dress the part!!!
you all have to pay your dues at any club....once you have been going for like a year there is never a problem...Paul and Brenda are some of the friendliest people i know...and once they recognize you as a regular..then there is no prob

- review by phoboskitty (March 15th 2002)

03-09-02

Eh. I was not that impressed with the club at all. The music definately left something to be desired, I mean...they played Len... I fancied the pool table and met some really cool people. At about 2am the drunkeness hit me and I was doing good. My virgin friend met a chick, and went home with her. Kinda freaked me out since we were about 300 miles from home. But alas, he came back to the hotel room a man and the club did make this possible. I plan on going back but not for the music. Detroit's goth scene and clubs certainly put the Garden to shame. I recommend it to anyone to just check it out.

- review by Kritikal (March 11th 2002)

U want Hard Core ?
Feb. 7 02- TIK Thursdays @ Savage

I read many of these banner offer sites of 'dark' interests finding a complaint often in th reviews & community from here to New Orleans: Of where`s th ebeef ? Th hard core industrial, EBM, or whatever , it sure isn`t a whole lotta of my dance faves such as Icon/Fleshfield/VNV,. This stuff stomps & grinds . Squid & th egang at T.I.K. hav been faithfully enduring Thursdays at Savage Garden developing an atmosphere that Metal-heads & foot stompers can come out & hear, and at volumes likely not in your house. I don`t know many of th names of these bands, but i`m sure w/ th selections & powder kegs they find these guys hav done thier homework. Sometimes it takes a lot of tongues to wag to get the message out that if u want HARD CORE this is a night u should b attending. I see the welcome shades of ol` Sanctuary Industrial fans happy to chill w/ whatever brew & just listen. It can get lonely on th dance floor , but th clusters of groups about th place at th pool table , at th bar or under th speakers each week appears to b gaining an audiance. Great ,I would like to see SG survive th Thursdays as other attempts hav not been so favourable. Third time a charm...? It`s getting some attention & I think w/ summer coming YEA YEA YEA , it would b nice to hav an assured Thursday there , rather than someother establishment to th east ... Want your Industrial fix ? give this nite a charge.

- review by ronald (March 8th 2002)

Saturday has got to be the best danze party anywhere, DJ Pale has taken on a no holds barred non-stop leave `em breathless & weak in in th knees danzers pandemonium, somewhere in that majic booth he has come up with what every dancer loves ; good tunes with a beat that gets everyone on thier feet, tunes you`ve loved to tunes that surprise . With a diverse crowd of dress & impress, I`m sure every guy & lady has their eye on someone that looks smashing in all the different hues , peacocks & swans gazelling under lights & don`t be afraid to make some bold suggestions, it`s unlikely they`ll hear u anyway under the pounding speakers. Leave your attitude at the door, I have no idea what has some people talking about in these reviews, the doorman have a job & do a good job. I believe the doormans job is to keep the party happy & people showing up with attitudes really aren`t welcome. Nearly 5 yrs I hav graced that dancefloor & I can remember only 2 incidents where attention was needed. Hey if u like a party & want to dump some of your stress, have fun, enjoy a grand night out , mingle w/ likeminded dancers that carry no pretentions u have choosen a danzers heaven. You really have to thank management & yes th edoormen for making your night a good one. and yes DJ M on Friday`s seems to attract a lot of the regulars to the Goth/Industrial scene w/ another good pounding on the floor,I love both nights for different reasons , but it`s something about the diversity on Saturdays that can keep you attracted to watching a lot of people from all scenes just showing up to DANZE & have fun.

- review by ronald (January 29th 2002)

The clubs in Toronto are way better than the few (think 2) so called goth clubs here in Detroit. My favorite has to be Savage Garden. I love the variety of music played on both Friday and Saturday nights. The dance floor is always busy and the drinks are resonably priced. The people are not "wanna-be goths" who only pretend to be goth.

Even for someone from Michigan, the people are friendly and welcoming. The restrooms are far better kept as is the club overall.

I have nothing bad to say whatsoever about Savage Garden except that it's so far away from me.

- review by Rachel (January 2002)

I have to say that the incident that resarfaphx described in his review of Savage Garden does not surprise me at all. A few months ago, I would have been shocked that anyone in such a supposedly 'open minded' scene could behave that way, but then I tried to meet a friend of mine there.

In the past, when we met beforehand and went in together, there was no issue: we both got in with no hassle. So I was rather surprised when he called me the next day to apologize for not showing up - the bouncers wouldn't let him in. Now he wasn't wearing much black, and he didn't have any obvious piercings, tattoos, or crazy hair colours, but there is no mention anywhere of a dress code, so what's the problem?

I'll tell you what the problem is: Posers. If you are so concerned about the purity of your scene that you can't bear to be around anyone who doesn't look like you, talk to the owner and post a f----- dress code. The petty tyrannies of the bouncers (and the Pure Ones who complain when the wrong sort gets let in) are irritating, inconsistent, and rude.

I've been a regular at Savage Garden for 5 years now, and for the most part I have enjoyed myself. But lately the ego has been getting so big I can barely breath. The only thing that keeps me coming back is the music on Fridays- soon that won't be enough

- review by maya (July 2001)

This 'review' is centered around an even which occurred about month ago on a Friday night. It might be more of a 'bitch' actually...whatever it is, I have known people to experience a similar situation.

A-hem...When the Sanctuary was around, it was my preferred watering-hole. Everyone was friendly, respectable, and kind. There was never a moment of hostility, and there was never a moment of uncomfort. When it finally closed its doors to make way for barstucks...I was sad. Where could I go to hear the music that I like...or at least music I don't mind. Well, the Savage Garden became that place every now and then, on those days that I felt like leaving my dungeon to walk amongst strangers of the street.

My girlfriend and I had spent the majority of the day walking around downtown...the main purpose was to pick up the new Foetus CD (Flow), but one thing led to another and we ended up catching a flick and eating some grubs (note...not grub). Anyhow, it was now dark outside, and the time was ideal to venture to the Garden. I will admit, that I was not dressed to my blackest and shiniest...but does this really matter on an evening which is not enforcing a strict dress code? I always respect such codes...and I love getting spiffed up for an evening of adventure. My girlfriend had just got her hair done a nice shade of bloody - frakenstein - jesus - ultra - malvolent - burgen - red. I thought it looked amazing...but, once again...it could have been blacker.

We made the hike up the stairs, and commenced retrieving our id's from their respective resting places. The 'bouncer' took one look at my female companion (up and down mind you...staring at hair...than breasts...than hair again), and proceeded to pronounce, in the most brackish and unsolecistic way..."can't come in...you're too drunk.". Hmmm, I thought. Unless that popcorn had something very strong in the butter, I don't know how I ingested this alcohol. In fact, if this alcohol consumption had occurred at any time, I would really like to know how and when, as it did not cost me a dime nor take any time. I proceeded to riposte, "ummm, you have to be joking...neither of us had anything to drink tonight". At this, he lifted his arse from its resting stool...and repeated his well-rehearsed mantra. Excellent I thought...not only am I saving some money here, I don't have to put up with idiots like this. The decision to leave the situation alone came instantly, and it had nothing to do with his skinny demeanor. He was not the least bit intimidating...

We proceeded down the stairs...busted a left onto Queen...and came up to the Bovine. The bouncer there, as always, was very friendly. We talked for a bit, as we all recognized each other...and then made our way inside. Once in there...we felt at home. The Savage can keep their pricks and stool benders...unfortunate that I won't be able to hear a couple songs I like...but the trade for a welcoming and friendly atmosphere, which guarantees an enjoyable evening...is no loss.

This unfortunate incident reminds me of discussions from the Sanctuary discussion board...which used to thrive with intelligent people. There were always the rumors of the bouncers turning away a lot of people based on race. Thinking back, I do not recall seeing people other than 'whitey' here. I seriously hope that they are not truly racist here, but events like this definitely make you realize just how pretentious they can be. Even if this is so, I am sure the owner of the club (who is actually quite a nice guy) does not have anything to do with it, but some of the primordial act-before-think 'bouncers', do not quite jive to this idea I am told.

This is obviously my own opinion...and I urge you to go and experience the place for yourself. If you get a chance...watch the door....see who they're turning away, and then ask yourself if you want to be part of this. So many reviews rave and rave about how good this is, and how great that it...this episode brought back feelings of having gum stuck in my hair in grade three. You're pissed, there's nothing you can do to undo the offending action, and you make sure to never be around the losers responsible for the stupidity.

I highly recommend checking out the Bovine, the Velvet (sundays), Reverb (for Dark Rave Vwhatever the hell were at now), and AC (hey....if you like crack and hookers...they are only a stones throw away). I will be dancing with my hands somewhere other than the SG.

- review by resarfaphx (July 2001)

I first went to Savage many years ago. I don't go very frequently, just once in a while when I'm around and have some money to spend. I read the other review on the place and was somewhat surprised. I've always seen numerous people in there who are not dressed in black or other typically gothic attire. Don't get me wrong, I'm not really complaining about that, but it would be nice if people put some effort into their appearance if they're going out for the evening.

The location itself seems to be good as there are many other venues around and it's easy to get to. The venue itself is definately not lacking, and I have always enjoyed the decor, especially the black and white photos displayed on the walls. The metalwork is also nice. My only complaint would be that the female bathroom is rather tiny, and it's easy to get whacked by the door. But that's not really a big issue with me and it's hard to do anything about that now.

- review by lucretia (July 2001)

After reading some reviews about the growing ego of Savage Garden, I felt the need to respond and shed some light on the matter. I am a conservative guy, but inside I feel drawn to the gothic side of life. Savage Garden and Velvet Underground are the only places I know of to participate in the scene and hear at least some of the music I love so much.

Some people have been complaining about the dress policy in effect at Savage Garden. It is a fallacy that they will not let you in if you are not dressed in black or do not have piercings or tattoos etc. I look like Robert Downey Jr. in khakis and a white shirt, which is exactly what I was wearing last night at both The Underground and the Garden. Nobody gave me trouble, and nobody felt the need to ignore me. Ok - I'm cute - maybe that helps. But when I asked the bartender dude at the Garden what had happened to all the ethereal electro goth I love so much, it was beyond appearances that he devoted a half hour of discussion to me. Like me, he agreed that the goth I was used to, Switchblade Symphony, Bella Morte, The Mission, and other keyboard, non-industrial bands were out of demand here in Toronto.

And that is where my disappointment began. Is my home the only place I can enjoy the sounds of Tina Root's atmospheric vocals pierce my soul? And is there no one else to enjoy this with if my friends are all conservative professionals, unknowingly living their lives straight out of American Psycho, listening to garbage like the Barenaked Ladies and N Sync? There must be more, I thought. Even in Toronto there must be a devoted Goth subculture that even my Club Monaco threads could fit into. I found the acceptance, but not the music. Perhaps weekends are not the best nights to visit the Garden if you're looking for music I am speaking of. Thursdays at both Velvet and the Garden are more for locals, while weekends find the suburban annoyances crawling around the floors.

Bring back the Goth!

- review by Jeckyl/Hyde (July 2001)

It would be safe to say that Savage Garden is the new Haven for the 'old sanctuary' crowd. Both Friday's and Saturday's music is excellent. Familiar faces are quite common at Savage. The club itself is rather small, but not too crowded. The window that over-looks Queen St. is good to look out while shooting a game of pool or sitting at one of the comfy booths. The dance floor is rather small and gets quite crowded especially when they play Skinny Puppy, Apotygma, or Ministry. The decor could use improvment but there's enough to make it sufficient.

Overall I would give Savage Garden a 4 out of 5.

- review by eric (May 2001)

Home away from home. Every time I open that big metal door, and climb up those stairs, I feel better. Doesn't matter how bad of a day I've had, or how icky the weather outside is. Open Friday and Saturday nights, it's pretty much the only goth/industrial only bar left in the city. Located on the north side of Queen West between Bathurst and Portland (across the street from the Reverb), it's also in the middle of your typical Queen street action. Smaller in size than Velvet, or AC, but still roomy enough to fit a fair amount of people. One pool table in between 4 booths, and some side benches at one end of the bar, with a small dance floor towards the back with more tables on a raised floor near the DJ booth and the washrooms. The only real problem with Savage is the size of the dance floor. When it gets crowded, and people need to find their way to the washrooms, it cuts the size of the floor down quite a bit. Makes for dancing anytime after 1:00 quite difficult. Watching the cage dancers is always a good distraction though. :)

Friday nights: DJ M's Industrial night is one of, if not the best in the city. The music is always fantastic, and the dance floor packed after 12:00. Very pleasant staff, and with many familiar faces, Friday nights there quickly become a welcoming place for goths/rivetheats to go. Not quite as crowded as the Saturday nights, moving around isn't too much of a trial.

Saturday nights: DJ Lord Pale (The owner, Paul) spins a nice variety of classic goth, industrial, new club standards, and some classic stuff you won't hear elsewhere. Dancing can be a bit difficult, as you never quite know what song is next, but still quite enjoyable. If you like a crowd, you'll love Saturday nights at Savage, as it is -jammed- come 1:00 AM, if not earlier.

- review by affliction (March 2001)

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